Concert Hall ATM, ART TOWER MITO

Mito Arts Foundation
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Interview with Toshi Ichiyanagi


INTERVIEWER: Mr. Ichiyanagi, having taken a course from John Cage at the New School in New York, you caused a great stir in the Japanese musical world by introducing indeterminate music (*1) to the country in the beginning of the 1960s through performances of your own works and American avant-garde works, including those by John Cage. What inspired you at the time to compose indeterminate music?

ICHIYANAGI: What I did during my stay in New York from the 1950s to the beginning of the 1960s has a direct connection with what I am doing today. In modern Europe, classical music was being termed as an "art based on tempo." In time, the organization of the tonality of the tempo-based music came to crumble, and I believe that this trend is intimately related to changes in the European social way of being.
For example, the rise of civil society introduced people to the music that formerly had been primarily the domain of royalty and aristocracy, as well as of the Church. As the age progressed, that development led to the gradual disappearance of various things that had formerly characterized music, such as the hierarchy of tonally-organized sounds. The reason for that was the growing independence of each member of the hoi polloi, who had previously been placed under the controlling classes of society, such as the royalty and aristocracy, or priests. Music changed in a way parallel to that development. The shift in music away from the type of music based on a single tone - such as C major or F major - and toward 12-tone music (*2) or other scales in which each sound was independent, reflected the modernization of Europe in particular.
However, the works of Schoenberg and others are characterized by the disappearance of several elements that used to typify tonal music, such as its dramatic qualities or its structure of "introduction, development, turn, and conclusion" --, a musical "plot" - which served to pull music listeners along. While it was certainly fine for Schoenberg et al. to distinguish sounds as they wrote their 12-tone music, it is also true that their music has a weaker hold on listeners - bearing less fascination to them - than does classical music of old. Because of that, the "time" element that had previously defined music also started to weaken, especially from Wagner onwards. I believe that there ought to be another element to replace time, or at least something to supplement it. Without any comparable element, music can no longer be strictly organized, as there is something also structurally basic that is being gradually lost.
My years in the United States coincided with the period in which people were looking for that "element." During the early part of my stay, I also wrote 12-tone music and did other things by trial and error. I feel that that era was an extremely difficult one, in which everyone found himself going nowhere, and composers found it difficult to write pieces. There was a strong yearning at that time for a breakthrough to the situation, and it was highly important for Cage and his inner circle to get together, and encounter indeterminate music or something completely different from previous ways of thinking. As far as people of that time were concerned, that music represented quite a big shock, given how different it was from previous ways of thinking, and it led to a clear division between the two camps of its supporters and its detractors, I think.

INTERVIEWER: In your answer just now, you mentioned that what you are pursuing in your work today is connected directly with what you had done in America. Could you please elaborate on that?

ICHIYANAGI: I feel intensely that "time" can no longer serve alone as the basic structural element of music. Furthermore - and this relates to the "Interplay for flute and string ensemble (Kisui-iki)" piece of mine that will be performed at ATM this time - I started to entertain the idea of incorporating the concept of space into music - something that had not been reflected upon so much before -- although it was not until a bit later when I actively developed the idea. That represents one link with the past. At the beginning, I was not so actively aware of the idea that there are many works in indeterminate music that do not make use of a score, or which go outside of staff notation, or which do not even use such notation altogether. Music in the past involved reading the flow from left to right, or along a horizontal axis, but in the newer kind of music no such directionality exists, without a fixed beginning and end. That is why I thought that there might be a way of doing things apart from using time. In fact, Cage himself never talked much about spatiality, although he was well versed in matters relating to Japan, the Orient, philosophy and thought. Japanese art does not make a distinction between time and space, right?

INTERVIEWER: Starting with your "Piano Media" of 1972, you switched your style from the indeterminate music to a musical world produced through staff musical notation, something that you have continued down to this day. Is it safe to assume that you, Mr. Ichiyanagi, experienced a shift in your take on music and the proper way of composition?

ICHIYANAGI: It may appear regressive, looking at what is printed on the score, for me to have started using staff notation again in the same way as I once did before starting to write indeterminate music. There are two main reasons for that.
The first is the fact that graphical scores are unfamiliar to performers, particularly those who are European-oriented. In addition, there is quite a degree of extemporaneous playing called for in those performances - something that is difficult for most such performers. In the past, I think everyone used to be good at contemporaneous playing, including Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, but in modern times, performers are performers - separated from the composer occupationally speaking - meaning that they are virtually unable to perform a piece unless they have a score before them.
It is my feeling that the composer takes the position of the "parent" who has given birth, and the performer is in the position of "raising" the work that the composer has borne. Earlier, it is thought that there used to be a more harmonious blend between the two - the parent (i.e., the composer) also took part in the rearing (i.e., the performance), while the "rearer" (i.e., the performer) also composed. However, in the case of the indeterminate music as written by Cage and others, there is no way it can become the kind of music "raised" by the performer. That was what I realized after about a decade or so of doing it.
The second reason for my return to the score is that I began to think that a staff notation that relied on the new musical notation, under such circumstances, would make it impossible to produce the kind of expression that could be linked to the problems of space, etc., that I just mentioned. "Piano Media" - a superficial glimpse of which does tend to be suggest a return to the staff notation - was the first work of mine to incorporate my first ideas about spatial music using staff notation. This piece is composed of two elements, and at first, they are distantly separated from each other. The relation between the two keeps the first element unchanged, with the other one gradually approaching the first until it unites with it, after which the two drift apart again. I composed the work with the idea of presenting a spatial musical relationship between the two elements.

INTERVIEWER: Could you please tell us something about the problem of spatiality in "Interplay (Kisui-iki)?"

ICHIYANAGI: I was thinking of addressing the same topic a bit during the rehearsal with the orchestra members. In sum, the piece comes from the period in my career when I was attempting to depart from the dualism that has existed so far, and to force the different concepts of time and space to mutually interact and permeate each other. Though that attempt takes a different form from what was done in the 1950s and 1960s, I also end up incorporating indeterminate elements in the piece. That stems from the fact that "kisui-iki" symbolizes an intermediate realm between sea and river: namely, it is both sea and river, while at the same time not being either of them. Similarly, time and space, then, are not merely dualistic, and ought not just to be overlapped. Instead, it is natural for there to be an intermediate stage between them. That is the kind of idea I wanted to use in my work, and can be found in the second half.

INTERVIEWER: A look at the instrumentation of "Kisui-iki" shows a single flute placed against a background of strings.

ICHIYANAGI: Maybe it would help you to picture the flute as the image of water, having a relationship with the image of the actual thing.

INTERVIEWER: When the piece was first performed, someone wrote that the work suggested hope, as the "kisui-iki" - which means the place where the fresh water of the river and the salt water of the sea intermix and "chase" each other - represents the replacement of the today's dichotomous conflict in the international situation and cultural circumstances, on one hand, with mutual exchange, on the other, with each side permeating the other in a way that creates a new order. However, in the 13 years since the debut performance of the work in 1992, the world has actually seen less movement toward such an order, and is instead traveling along a path of increasing disarray. What are your thoughts about that, Mr. Ichiyanagi?
ICHIYANAGI: If the world is confused or in disarray, then there is still hope, I think, but instead, I get the impression that the world is clearly heading back toward classical dualism. That of course has something to do with what happened on 9/11, but at the same time, it is related to the merits and demerits of globalization itself. As far as the arts are concerned, I think we must think carefully about the negative aspects that globalization has brought about.
The reason for that, I believe, is that globalization essentially means Americanization; and at the end of the day, the primary consideration in arts nowadays seems to be how to attract an audience and maximize it. In consideration of the future, however, a skillful handling must be made simultaneously of two elements - both of producing creative things and attracting an audience. However, abiding by the thinking of globalization means that things that don't make money or attract audiences end up getting weeded out. The tendency is to ignore contents or quality, and to worry solely about market principles.
It is precisely because of the nature of our age that creates difficulties in the rationale for the existence of contemporary music and art, but I do think there is such a rationale in actuality. Unless a continuous consideration is made of quality and contents, what is left is totally a fleeting, brutal situation, with no promise for the future, I think. Let me illustrate the situation with this aside: a walk through Shibuya in Tokyo will show that most eating establishments are now American-style chain restaurants, with most of the old European-style teahouses, where one could sip tea leisurely and enjoy conversation, having disappeared. The unique qualities that used to define the neighborhood for so long have been eradicated, yielding to today's main emphasis on making a buck and getting customers to come in, I feel.
I myself spent my youth in America, so I don't want to criticize that country too much (laughter). It's just that I think it's important to retain European-style ways of doing things when it comes to culture.

INTERVIEWER: One of the major activities of the Mito Chamber Orchestra (MCO) is to perform certain concerts without a conductor. I think you composed "Kisui-iki" with the supposition that there would be no conductor as well. What do you think about a chamber orchestra performing without a conductor?

ICHIYANAGI: There are works by some composers that are characterized by the need to get a precise beat or tempo, I believe, while other music allows for a certain degree of freedom, letting each individual express his or her identity in the music. If the difference between the two becomes more pronounced, then the unique characteristics of both conductor-led and conductor-less music may live on.
If I may dwell on this topic more deeply, Japanese gagaku music can be described as a "Japanese orchestra" - one without a conductor. In the Heian Period (874-1128?), it was not as cleanly organized as it is today - I have heard, for example, that a hundred people used to perform gagaku together. Even with a hundred performers, though, there was never any conductor. That means that, unlike the European way of thinking, there was no single person who controlled everything - the unique Japanese "mihakarai" or the placement of a pause - but rather, each member played by listening to the other members, depending on the particular situation at the time. Indeterminate music is precisely that kind of music.
Whenever I compose a large work using Japanese instruments, I never use a conductor as a rule. No matter how difficult the piece is, I leave it up to the performers to play it on their own. They have a tradition of performing that way, in which they are thoroughly versed. Both the conductor and the players have their own personalities, and letting that of the conductor take precedence over the others in the European fashion would probably be difficult in the case of gagaku, as a Japanese way of doing things - with each of the performers' individuality standing out in gagaku, the sense one gets is not that of a precisely organized army, and that is all for the better, I think. So I think it is a wonderful thing that MCO has chosen to perform the work without a conductor.

INTERVIEWER: Lastly, what is your message for the audience at Mito?

ICHIYANAGI: It is highly unusual for a city of Mito's scale to have a facility in which not just music, but different genres of art, mix together in the same place. Unlike one's experience when visiting an ordinary large concert hall, one can also enjoy visual art or watch a play in addition to hearing the music. I really hope that the audience would do that. Each genre of art has a reason for being - for instance, why are they doing such a thing? - and one's understanding can be deepened by looking at the mutual relationship between them, rather than just looking at one genre. I definitely feel that this will heighten people's interest in the arts in general. Moreover, that way of looking and hearing will lead to a spiritual culture that will spread throughout the environment of the city, I think.

INTERVIEWER: Thank you very much for your time.


*1 Also termed "accidental music," "aleatory music" or "chance music."
Starting in the early 1950s, this music was first proposed and then put intopractice by John Cage. Renouncing composer-dominated and composer-controlled sound, Cage set out to determine sound as sound, in the same fashion as a stone or tree in nature, for example.

*2 Various composers have attempted the organization of 12-tone music, the prime example of whom is Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951). One characteristic of Schoenberg's 12-tone music is the implementation of a tone series employing each of the 12 tones, to serve as the building blocks of his music. Based on that, he arranged the tone sequence of his compositions both melodically and harmonically.



Interviewer: Akira Nakamura, producer, Concert Hall ATM
April 9, 2005
At the home of Toshi Ichiyanagi



IN COMMEMORATION OF ATM'S 15TH ANNIVERSARY
Mito Chamber Orchestra (MCO) 61st Regular Concert

June 18, 2005 (Sat) 6:30 p.m. (seating begins at 6:00 p.m.)
June 19, 2004 (Sun) 2:00 p.m. (seating begins at 1:30 p.m.)
All seats reserved. Tickets already on sale.
S ¥5,000 / A ¥4,000 / B ¥3,000

Schubert: Overture In D, "In The Italian Style," D.590
Toshi Ichiyanagi: Interplay for flute and string ensemble (comissioned work for the MCO, 1992)
Mendelssohn: Symphony #4 in A, "Italian," Op. 90


Supported by: Daiichi Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd.

Suntory Ltd.

Point Inc.

Zaidanhojin Genden Fureai Ibaraki Zaidan (Japan Atomic Power Co. Ibaraki Foundation)

YOSHIDA OIL CO.,LTD.
Cooperation: All Nippon Airways (ANA)

Mito Chamber of Commerce & Industry



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Translated by Paul T. Narum
(official names of works are furnished by the artists and planners themselves)

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